China vs America: Economic War

[KommieKat]

War has already started between the two but Americans don't see, yet.

While America is going around the world and gobbling oil by militaristic means, China is investing in other resources. America spends billions in Afghanistan killing people, China spends billions in Afghanistan in copper mines, a resource needed for Wind Turbines.

So, China is accumulating resources to set up its infrastructure for the 21st century, America sits on non-conventional oil resources in Iraq and Libya.

China and India are busy buying up new gold mines and distributing it to it's citizens with Gold ATM dispensers, America is limiting the purchase of it from it's citizens.

China spends 1/2 trillion $'s on critical resources a year while America spends the same amount on war.

And the winner of the Global Currency War will be....drum beat....China. America, you can print up all the paper currency you want but the clear winner will be the nation that goes to a Gold backed currency, which will be China.

And stop blaming China for your economic woes. YOU sent your factories over to China and the numbers say that IF China has affected U.S. unemployment, it's like 1% of 1%.

[CrAnIuM]

but Americans don't see

^ The amount of anti-China talk I've heard in casual talk tells me that plenty of Americans see it just fine.




China spends billions in Afghanistan in copper mines, a resource needed for Wind Turbines.

Not just wind turbines, electronics in general. As in the shitty knock off Chinese crap flooding the world markets.




China is accumulating resources to set up its infrastructure for the 21st century

And rushes to bury trains and hide collapsed buildings from "pesky" news media types.





China spends 1/2 trillion $'s on critical resources a year while America spends the same amount on war.

How many Aircraft carrier groups does China plan for the next 20 years, 2? 3? . Hmmm, that is in the magnitude of several hundred billion dollars each. ( a group is dozens of ships .. not just the carrier)

And oh by the way .. an AIRCRAFT carrier is a FORCE PROJECTION PLATFORM. In other words it is a big ass war machine waiting for a war to start .... or to start a war.




And stop blaming China for your economic woes. YOU sent your factories over to China and the numbers say that IF China has affected U.S. unemployment, it's like 1% of 1%.

Yup. Us companies do have factories in countries with slave labor practices. And The US SHOULD stop imports from those countries and place a ~ 50% tax on goods made outside the us and then sold under a US banner.

NO ONE can compete with a manufacturing base that works its people to death for pennies an hour. NO ONE.

US companies should be ashamed of this. US labor unions ( hypocritical weasel bastards) should be ashamed of this.

[CrAnIuM]

China and India are busy buying up new gold mines and distributing it to it's citizens with Gold ATM dispensers, America is limiting the purchase of it from it's citizens.

oops .. missed this one;

BULLSHIT.

You present this as if China is giving away FREE gold. And that the US is preventing people from buying it.

Both of those are lies.





China spends billions in Afghanistan in copper mines, a resource needed for Wind Turbines.


Oops .. need to add to this:

The US and some other NATO countries and a litany of UN countries have Willingly withdrawn from parts of Africa that are having internal civil war and other atrocities. The idea being that rich countries will not be paying a corrupt African Warlord/leader for the mineral rights when it is KNOWN that the money will go for the war funds rather than social programs.

China says fuck em .. its good business to pay for minerals in a war zone cause its cheap !!!

[Zeabot]

NO ONE can compete with a manufacturing base that works its people to death for pennies an hour.
I believe this will not last another decade or two. One of the biggest things people do not understand about the economies of India and China is the diminishing returns to capital. For years both of those countries were in the shitter, as far as capital goes. Basically the idea is this: one computer vs. none is infinitely better. Two compared to one is great. Three compared to two is better, etc... until you get the 5000 computer for your company of 5000 people. Now that 5001 computer just doesn't really do much for you. After 150+ years of being the best industrial country (or at least since WWII), America is just all capitaled out. Our gains are slim compared to the emerging economies of India and China for that reason alone.
Also, I'd like to point your attention to the United States during our enormous industrialization during the 1870's --> 1940's. We worked for pennies. We slaved in hot factories until death. Then we got sick of it, unions formed, etc. etc. etc. I firmly believe, once China has a good taste of what it can be like to be lazy, like Americans, they will demand the same.

[KommieKat]

The amount of anti-China talk I've heard in casual talk tells me that plenty of Americans see it just fine.

If it's all "anti" talk than you just proved you know nothing.


As in the shitty knock off Chinese crap flooding the world markets.

Examples? Most "knock off" products are made in US managed factories for US consumers. Blame corporate America, not the factories.


And rushes to bury trains and hide collapsed buildings from "pesky" news media types.

That was Local gov, and the Transportation Ministry of corrupt officials, not central Beijing.


How many Aircraft carrier groups does China plan for the next 20 years, 2? 3? . Hmmm, that is in the magnitude of several hundred billion dollars each. ( a group is dozens of ships .. not just the carrier)

You just proved my point. US is an OIL hungry nation using militant methods to conquer the worlds last oil deposits.


slave labor practices.

These practices are not endorsed by the central gov but are enforced by corporate Japan, Taiwan, US and European companies.

[KommieKat]

We worked for pennies. We slaved in hot factories until death.
Very good point!


Then we got sick of it, unions formed, etc. etc. etc.

They are. After three suicides in one month at Apple, Shenzhen China, unions are forming and fair working regulations are forming as we speak.

[surgicalstrike]

Housing bubble coming very soon.

Wonder how that will play out with the US/world market?

[CrAnIuM]

You just proved my point

No I did not. You made a list of unsubstantiated assumptions and I offered my rebuttal.

I'm not even sure you had a point.

[CrAnIuM]

You just proved my point. US is an OIL hungry nation using militant methods to conquer the worlds last oil deposits.

I'm not arguing against that at all^.

I'm saying your precious China will be the recipient of a barrage of nukes one day because their army is as vast as a fire ant nest and the only way to truly rid that crawling mass of vermin is to eradicate the entire nest.

^^ Well, that is how a government with an army of less than 2 million dudes sees an army with 200 million.


In any case, we're all fucked.

[CrAnIuM]

words

Good points.

So to follow the logic to a conclusion humanity will need to either:

a) Reset to the stone age. (Population and technology as well)

b) Develop interstellar travel so we can infest some other orbiting rock.


Because there will always be stragglers unless we slow the pace to accommodate the slowest runner.

[Zeabot]

unions are forming and fair working regulations are forming as we speak.
Then once America is done abusing the cheap labor there, we will move some pace else. Some other third world country that is willing to work for scraps. We will then abuse the hell out of that country then complain when they start to industrialize.
That process ^^^ has been the way of the world for centuries. It used to be done strictly by war (conquer and enslave). Then in the 1500 and 1600's, with the colonization (which also had conquering and enslaving), they started just using the locals to produce exotic goods for them. Etc... Etc... Etc...
The only difference between NOW and THEN is this little science called "economics" have emerged over the last hundred years. Specifically, macroeconomics. That, combined with the information age, makes everyone think they know what is going on with global economies. Thanks internet.

[Gravy]

So long as China keeps buying natural resources (including uranium I should mention, seeing as the N-word has been dropped in this thread already) from Australia, and the Australian Dollar remains higher than the US Dollar as it has in recent months, I'm all for this "economic war". Economic allies with one "super power", military allies with another = quite dandy.

Shopping from stores located overseas has never been such a joy-filled experience! Shame there isn't anything that really interests me in the USA these days.. that I could legally import, anyway.

As for any potential Chinese invasions of other countries.. they don't need a military to do that. Go down your local High St and count how many businesses are still locally owned..

[KommieKat]

Here we go again.
Americans blaming the Chinese for their economic woes, not recognizing that the era of the US dollar being the worlds currency reserve is now over, kaput, finito, American gets pissed off because China is trading currency with other countries, leaving the US currency far behind to fall and fail as well as buying up gold, knowing that gold will be the next standard.

[Zeabot]

buying up gold, knowing that gold will be the next standard.
Even if gold does become a standard again, it won't last long. Making a physical item the standard for currency severely limits the growth of said currency. Also, while the dollar may not be "worth as much," it is still the #1 traded currency in the world, so some one is seeing the value of the dollar.

[CrAnIuM]

Here we go again.

I disagree with this. ^

Most evidence and most of the rats that have been seen scurrying from the global meltdown all appear to be birds of a feather.

Dollar, Yen .. gold. Does not matter as long as the wild ass speculation and predatory fractional reserve banking continue unabated as before.

We're all fucked, and China's citizenry is gonna be just as disenfranchised as those that were formerly in countries with "good" economies.

[KommieKat]

We're all fucked, and China's citizenry is gonna be just as disenfranchised as those that were formerly in countries with "good" economies.

Not necessarily when China and the countries that it trades with are using a currency that hold value, paper or gold.
Paper will go first in America then Europe then China and by that time, China and it's trading partners will be on gold.

Bye bye green back, hello gold.

[CrAnIuM]

Not necessarily when China and the countries that it trades with are using a currency that hold value, paper or gold.
Paper will go first in America then Europe then China and by that time, China and it's trading partners will be on gold.

Bye bye green back, hello gold.

And the benevolent chairman will shower his loyal subjects with golden riches.


K.

Sure buddy.

[Firestorm]

And the benevolent chairman will shower his loyal subjects with golden riches.


K.

Sure buddy.

Yeah I see that happening, after all he has been SO generous up to this point.

[KommieKat]

Obama has been better? This has nothing to do with "subjects with gold" because they're over paid and spoiled as it is.

You're way off track, deep in left field.

They have Gold ATM machines. Do YOU see anywhere near you? I didn't think so, because the US gov too busy trying to scoop it all up themselves and t aken out of the hands of Public Joe Blow. ATM dispensers means GOLD is being DISPENSED to the public, as an encouragement to buy GOLD. What does that forecast? It FORECAST that paper currency is on it's way out.

Got it? Typical American Bravado replies like "Durdy durdy durdy, yup, I see that happenen. Durdy durdy", speaks loads of wisdom you apparently lack on this issue.

[CrAnIuM]

ATM dispensers means GOLD is being DISPENSED to the public, as an encouragement to buy GOLD. What does that forecast? It FORECAST that paper currency is on it's way out.

Got it? Typical American Bravado replies like "Durdy durdy durdy, yup, I see that happenen. Durdy durdy", speaks loads of wisdom you apparently lack on this issue.

I don't got it .. and neither do you obviously.

I can buy bottle water at a "dispenser" as well. It is being dispensed to the public here as an encouragement to buy WATER.. <--- Sweet ! That means that water will be the new currency ! WIN! Its raining today .. I are riiiich bitches !!!

[KommieKat]

Well you're obviously doing a good job at not being serious or do I have it wrong and you're being a serious joker.

You're comparing apples to bananas. We are talking about a trading currency or commodity and before you go on about the future plight of water, lets stick to the now or near near future. The US gov is NOT dispensing gold to it's populace. In fact, it's hoarding it.

Increases in demand from China and India have driven a 7.5 percent increase in demand for gold jewelry during the first half of the year despite a 25 percent increase in the price, according to a report released this week from GFMS. However, much of India’s potential gold demand remains untapped.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2011/09/20/china-and-india-stoke-global-gold-demand/

Oh, guess what. It's been discovered that Fort Knox does NOT have much if any gold at all.

About Fort Knox Gold:
http://www.fgmr.com/right2know.htm
In the 1970's a very courageous gentleman named Edward Durrell claimed that
substantially all of the US Gold Reserve being stored at Ft. Knox was gone.
Only 1,000 tonnes or so of the 8,500 tonnes supposedly being stored there
remained. The rest had been secretly taken from Ft. Knox and shipped to
London in 1967 and early 1968 for sale by President Johnson in an ill-fated
attempt to keep the price of Gold at $35 per ounce.
http://hardtruth.topcities.com/nelsonrockefellerandfortknoxscandel.htm
First, about Fort Knox. You know, the Fort Knox Gold Scandal is just like
the Watergate Scandal in one respect: There is a desperate cover-up going on
right now just as happened with Watergate.


http://www.apfn.net/doc-100_bankruptcy10.htm

Unfortunately, while others scrambled to protect themselves from the instability of paper money, Americans had to watch from the sidelines. For them, owning gold has long been a criminal offense, punishable by up to ten years in jail and/or up to a $10,000 fine; they also risk confiscation of the gold and a penalty of twice its value.

http://users.rcn.com/mgfree/Economics/goldHistory.html


Now, throw down, mofo's, or get the f@@k out!

[Zeabot]

Gold will not become a currency again. Period. It's a physical item with severe limitations.

[Firestorm]

Now, throw down, mofo's, or get the f@@k out!

Hate to burst your bubble, but these "gold" ATM's you're going on and on about are just that, ATM's and a fad at best. Yep, that means your average Chinese investor can go to the ATM and get a small bar of gold instead of cash. Big deal. According to CNN, only about 1% of China's population can afford to use this feature, so tell me how that's different than the wealthy here in the states "hoarding" gold? Yes, you can go to an ATM and buy a small bar of gold, at whatever the current market rate is. You can walk into any jewelry store or pawn broker here in the states and buy gold, in bar form or other, at current market rate. So some idiot decided to put it in an ATM, good for him and it will be a great fad, until the first time they take a serious loss due to theft, then you'll see it right back where it was before this fad made news headlines.

Illegal to own gold in the US? Cite your source. Yes, there are limits to how many gold coins minted in other countries, specifically South Africa, you can own. In 1973, President Ford signed a bill into law allowing US citizens to own gold in bars, etc, EXCEPT those minted in embargoed countries. Is there a reason why gold from other countries is controlled and limited in the US? Yes, but its not an economic issue, but rather one of gold standards and quality standards. Specifically, gold bullion is illegal to import and own because it is quite often not "pure" gold or does not meet the current metalurgic standard for gold in the US. Eventually, I expect we will see gold to be more readily available, if the demand gets sufficient. It will fall much along the same lines as stainless steel. For years you could not import stainless steel in the US unless it met a specific metalurgic standard. Germany and Japan were two countries that met this standard. As demand for stainless steel surgical/medical instruments, cutlery and tools increased, the standard was lowered and more countries, including China and Pakistan were allowed to import their stainless steel products. Trust me, there is a hug difference between US made 440 stainless steel and the same 440 stainless made in China. Before you go on a rant about "typical American bullshit", I mean the metalurgic quality is different, not the manufacturing quality.

[KommieKat]

Why do you ask for proof when I gave links above. If you had clicked them, you would not need to ask for proof nor would you have gone out in left field about your rant on steel and metallurgy. We are discussing currency, gold and who will lead the world economically.

Here is more proof:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

How about this: you prove that the US is now the worlds economic leader and how it will maintain the lead. Bet you can't do it.

You're seriously missing the point about the ATM's selling gold. There are no taxes associated with buying and selling gold. Can you say the same about the US? This fact already makes it the de facto currency. It is the worlds largest buyer of gold to date. Gee, I wonder why?

Commodities are only going to increase in price in the future and gold is about the only way of rationing scarce commodities with China's Yuan playing a critical role as a world currency.

Problem you're having is accepting the facts. America is doomed. The Greenback is already on it's way out. You just fail to see or accept it. Understandable. Pride in one's country is important. Recognizing fact from fiction is even more important.

China is also quite serious about developing alternative energies and you can bet your ass US solar makers are NOT competing against themselves, but are competing against an entire nation, that being China.

[Firestorm]

China and India are busy buying up new gold mines and distributing it to it's citizens with Gold ATM dispensers, America is limiting the purchase of it from it's citizens.

Funny, seems to me that here you're talking about ATM's that dispense gold, thus my reply. Replying to your post is not a rant, now take a deep breath and get that its not a personal attack. It's called point and counter point, look it up.



And the winner of the Global Currency War will be....drum beat....China. America, you can print up all the paper currency you want but the clear winner will be the nation that goes to a Gold backed currency, which will be China.

Hate to burst your bubble, but NO country has every piece of paper currency gold backed and it's a physical impossibility that they ever will. Again, not a rant, just a counter point. To use a phrase you have often tossed in my direction "chill".

[KommieKat]

Funny, seems to me that here you're talking about ATM's that dispense gold

That's exactly what I was talking about. What point did you miss out on?

Don't tell me to chill. I'm perfectly cool and calm. Interjecting much? I never gave the impression that I was taking anything as a personal attack. Perhaps you're a creature of bad habits? YOU chill.

You're "counter points" are based on what you think you know. You obviously did not take time to read the links, yet you want links.
That's being, what, double standard? Contradictory? You either read the links and comment, or don't read them and comment. Either action will show a result corresponding to that action, or should I say, inaction.

My "bubble" is again your interjecting, based on nothing because you've yet to show proof, is your way of disproving what I wrote, backed with proof. How odd.

[Zeabot]

I don't quite know what you're talking about, either, Kommie. I bought gold and was not taxed. But anyhoo.

Commodity backed currency cannot hold in the current state. There is absolutely no growth potential that needs to be backed up by some sort of standard. Secondly, and importantly, since gold is being used in many manufacturing processes, the gold supply will dwindle, confounding the problem stated in my second sentence.

America is not the world leader in economically? Maybe not by a clear cut margin, but last I heard, oil is still traded in our currency. The US dollar is still one of the most imported currencies in the world (including by the Chinese.) If they are so smart and knowing about the future of the world, why would they buy most of our debt? It sounds silly.

[KommieKat]

but last I heard, oil is still traded in our currency. The US dollar is still one of the most imported currencies in the world

Iraq, Libya and Iran are independent oil produces but the American oil cartel can't have that.
Saddam said he was going to trade in the Euro, two months later, his country was attacked.

Gaddafi said that he was going to trade in gold. Two months later, U.S. sponsored NATO attacked his country.

Now, we've got talk of war with Iran and the green sign from the Pentagon for Israel to do as it wishes.

You're correct, oil is traded in US currency, but that will not last for long. Those countries doing so, already know they are losing money.

China, Russia, Japan and several of the most powerful Gulf States are actively plotting to end the decades-old practice of buying and selling oil in dollars, the Independent claimed today.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/oct/06/oil-us-dollar-threat-to-america

The demise of the dollar
In a graphic illustration of the new world order, Arab states have launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the US currency for oil trading
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html


I have a serious question for you because I'm not sure:
Do you not have to claim all stocks, dividends and gold holdings in your tax statement?
Can you keep gold overseas?
Lastly, I can answer you this one by stating that Treasury Bonds, that I have, are FUCKING taxed when I cash them in.

Get this, I LOAN the US MY money for their wars. They pay me interest. I cash in, they tax me, so it ends up NO interest and I come out less. Does this make any sense to you??
Something is seriously wrong here.

[Zeabot]

Do you not have to claim all stocks, dividends and gold holdings in your tax statement?
I never claimed anything with my gold. Hope the IRS doesn't come knocking.

And yes, the "savings" system in the US is completed backward. Interest rates that are below inflation rates, even with CDs and Bonds. It almost forces people to invest in stocks and hope for the best.

[Firestorm]

Do you not have to claim all stocks, dividends and gold holdings in your tax statement?
Can you keep gold overseas?

This is a tricky question. Example, a portion of my trust fund is held in banks not based in the states and no I'm not required to pay taxes on them or the various stocks those banks invest in using funds from my trust. However, if I use dividends from those investments here in the states, I'm taxed on the amount invested.

As far as gold holdings, I have some here in the states and some in other places and to date haven't been taxed on any of them, but I think that has more to do with most of the gold in question was part of an estate that predates a lot of the current tax disclosure laws and was covered under a grandfather clause exempting them from tax. I may very well get taxed if and when I sell them, at least here in the states.



Treasury Bonds, that I have, are FUCKING taxed when I cash them in.

I feel your pain on this one. All of my adult life I was investing in treasury bonds and savings bonds, only to get raped either when they matured or when I cashed them in.